BFI event: Lionel Wolberger interviews Alec Nevala-Lee
Archival: from the TrimTab Book Club Google Group
Date: Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 3:20:21 PM UTC-7
Subject: Re: Inventor of the Future Interview @ BFI: Lionel Interviewing Alec
Many thank yous Lionel; I just finished a first listen-through, on my iPad, sometimes changing rooms. I'll take a picture... in my kitchen.[1]
Subject: Re: Inventor of the Future Interview @ BFI: Lionel Interviewing Alec
Many thank yous Lionel; I just finished a first listen-through, on my iPad, sometimes changing rooms. I'll take a picture... in my kitchen.[1]
Hey, great stuff.
Now that this meetup is archived online on YouTube, I won't put myself under artificial pressure by thinking I have to give all my follow-on thoughts in one go. It's a lasting resource to go back to. I'm not gonna touch that "glowing ball of light" story in this one (except right there, I just did).
I've already posted lots about Alec's book and was most recently showcasing it to my audience in Lithuania (m4w thread).[2]
I agree with Alec that Fuller constructs a rather private sky of mytho-poetic signifiers, per what Alec terms "the Naga story" and this is indeed influenced by lots and lots of world travel (42 times around the globe was it? -- like I've only done it twice). A lot of it comes across as unbelievable, the kind of tall tale expected from veteran seafarers (those who've ventured beyond the horizon a few times). Note his tribute to poets in the opening pages of Critical Path, e.e. cummings in particular.
I'd say it's not a character flaw to construct and/or inherit some saga-raga cosmic-epic background, in the foreground of which one plays a protagonist of some sort. I think the Jungians would agree: this is an archetypal, and potentially healthy, metaphysical (psychological) configuration, provided one is aware of one's doing so. Or did Fuller degenerate into paranoia and megalomania? [3]
A useful way to recast "poetry" -- if that sounds uncomfortably "romantic" or whatever (to some it does, especially Stemites) -- is to think of it as a code language, an alien tongue, like those comic book men in black have to decipher. Critical Path does appear to contain or talk about military secrets, akin to Cryptonomicon (Neal Stephenson) which followed later. To "scan" is to "climb" (scale).[4] Universe is eternally aconceptual (adding to spellchecker), non-unitarily scannable (unitarily unscannable), in Synergetics.
Most interesting were Alec's thoughts about decentralization and how OMR (Old Man River city) and other such marvelous Wakanda-style mega-projects maybe ran contrary to Fuller's own deeper values, and that maybe he was selling out in some sense, going for sensationalism.
I admit I've always seen the "dome over Manhattan" project as somewhat tongue-in-cheekily audacious, attached to a more sober discourse regarding surface:volume ratios and the economics of space heating (a city is like an old fashioned radiator, in terms of surface:volume heating efficiency, whereas a heated dome could leak less). As Alec and Lionel point out: he employs techniques familiar to science fiction publishers who want to sell movies, books and magazines, sparking our imaginations with visions of possible (and impossible) worlds.
I think Fuller always had his mega-projects side, with Planet Earth his backdrop. He didn't dream of other planets all that much, staying focused on his own lifetime goals, although he did use the civilian space program's Apollo Project as his example of critical path planning and management on a vast scale. He didn't wait for UFOs to solve our problems with their mysterious free energy.
From the 4D towers, planted by helicopter, onward, and to his navy years before: I see a through line of mega-projects. Decentralization coexists as a countering (balancing) pattern. Ultimately it's all one ecosystem, and so we're free to blame nature, not some nebulous "world government" for our immediate need to collectively cooperate and centrally plan in (sometimes competitive) scenarios. That's thermodynamics for ya (ala Into the Cool). How anti-entropic do we wanna be, given our daily energy budget? It takes work, including the work of the intellect (cogitation), to stay human (not a given, don't take it for granted -- per existentialism).
As a species, like ants, we're into terraforming (witness cities, roads, pipelines, grids), for better and/or for worse.
In many ways Alec and I dovetail in terms of sources: Alec talks a lot about Stewart Brand, whereas I talk more about -- and at one point interview [5] -- J. Baldwin; Alec interviews someone on one of the two trips to the Philippines (where I was in high school), whereas I'm friends with someone on the other trip to visit Malacanang Palace, i.e. Sam Lanahan (who knew the Applewhites in DC); Alec accesses the Stanford Archive, whereas I've mostly accessed Trevor Blake's (now at OSU) and Ed's stuff (the stuff he'd share) -- plus Kenneth Snelson and I were buddies, and Kiyoshi.
Alec does tell some of Baldwin's story of course (he's a key player), including the part about smuggling Joe Clinton's chord factors out of NASA before Joe was comfortable his program had been debugged. But did Alec pick up on Baldwin's punch line to this story?: that's why so many domes leaked (i.e. we can blame Jay for declassifying the buggy chord factors too soon).
I'm familiar with the virtual amphitheater and such experiments from earlier BFI Regenera events, as well as from my days working with Bonnie DeVarco on 2nd-life type virtual high school etc, i.e. early Meta type stuff. No, I don't have any goggles yet, but I do brainstorm about virtual realities (polyhedrons prominent) with my Silicon Forest friends.
Speaking of social media and "the computer" (another Fuller meme), I think Bucky was taking note of the term's evolving meaning over his lifetime (including in science fiction), and how (some) people seemed to take computer output as more objectively authoritative.
Then came Jay Forrester and world modeling (Club of Rome), so close to world game in both implementation and intent. Dr. Vannevar Bush anticipated the search engine front end to a vast archive, in 1945. Fuller rubbed shoulders with such visionary "est people" (Doxiadis...) [6]. A lot of "his" futurism was indeed synthesized from his conversations with others, Grunch of Giants included, by which time said "computer" (the one we can't fool) is "cosmic" and hardly distinguishable from "mind" itself.
Now that this meetup is archived online on YouTube, I won't put myself under artificial pressure by thinking I have to give all my follow-on thoughts in one go. It's a lasting resource to go back to. I'm not gonna touch that "glowing ball of light" story in this one (except right there, I just did).
I've already posted lots about Alec's book and was most recently showcasing it to my audience in Lithuania (m4w thread).[2]
I agree with Alec that Fuller constructs a rather private sky of mytho-poetic signifiers, per what Alec terms "the Naga story" and this is indeed influenced by lots and lots of world travel (42 times around the globe was it? -- like I've only done it twice). A lot of it comes across as unbelievable, the kind of tall tale expected from veteran seafarers (those who've ventured beyond the horizon a few times). Note his tribute to poets in the opening pages of Critical Path, e.e. cummings in particular.
I'd say it's not a character flaw to construct and/or inherit some saga-raga cosmic-epic background, in the foreground of which one plays a protagonist of some sort. I think the Jungians would agree: this is an archetypal, and potentially healthy, metaphysical (psychological) configuration, provided one is aware of one's doing so. Or did Fuller degenerate into paranoia and megalomania? [3]
A useful way to recast "poetry" -- if that sounds uncomfortably "romantic" or whatever (to some it does, especially Stemites) -- is to think of it as a code language, an alien tongue, like those comic book men in black have to decipher. Critical Path does appear to contain or talk about military secrets, akin to Cryptonomicon (Neal Stephenson) which followed later. To "scan" is to "climb" (scale).[4] Universe is eternally aconceptual (adding to spellchecker), non-unitarily scannable (unitarily unscannable), in Synergetics.
Most interesting were Alec's thoughts about decentralization and how OMR (Old Man River city) and other such marvelous Wakanda-style mega-projects maybe ran contrary to Fuller's own deeper values, and that maybe he was selling out in some sense, going for sensationalism.
I admit I've always seen the "dome over Manhattan" project as somewhat tongue-in-cheekily audacious, attached to a more sober discourse regarding surface:volume ratios and the economics of space heating (a city is like an old fashioned radiator, in terms of surface:volume heating efficiency, whereas a heated dome could leak less). As Alec and Lionel point out: he employs techniques familiar to science fiction publishers who want to sell movies, books and magazines, sparking our imaginations with visions of possible (and impossible) worlds.
I think Fuller always had his mega-projects side, with Planet Earth his backdrop. He didn't dream of other planets all that much, staying focused on his own lifetime goals, although he did use the civilian space program's Apollo Project as his example of critical path planning and management on a vast scale. He didn't wait for UFOs to solve our problems with their mysterious free energy.
From the 4D towers, planted by helicopter, onward, and to his navy years before: I see a through line of mega-projects. Decentralization coexists as a countering (balancing) pattern. Ultimately it's all one ecosystem, and so we're free to blame nature, not some nebulous "world government" for our immediate need to collectively cooperate and centrally plan in (sometimes competitive) scenarios. That's thermodynamics for ya (ala Into the Cool). How anti-entropic do we wanna be, given our daily energy budget? It takes work, including the work of the intellect (cogitation), to stay human (not a given, don't take it for granted -- per existentialism).
As a species, like ants, we're into terraforming (witness cities, roads, pipelines, grids), for better and/or for worse.
In many ways Alec and I dovetail in terms of sources: Alec talks a lot about Stewart Brand, whereas I talk more about -- and at one point interview [5] -- J. Baldwin; Alec interviews someone on one of the two trips to the Philippines (where I was in high school), whereas I'm friends with someone on the other trip to visit Malacanang Palace, i.e. Sam Lanahan (who knew the Applewhites in DC); Alec accesses the Stanford Archive, whereas I've mostly accessed Trevor Blake's (now at OSU) and Ed's stuff (the stuff he'd share) -- plus Kenneth Snelson and I were buddies, and Kiyoshi.
Alec does tell some of Baldwin's story of course (he's a key player), including the part about smuggling Joe Clinton's chord factors out of NASA before Joe was comfortable his program had been debugged. But did Alec pick up on Baldwin's punch line to this story?: that's why so many domes leaked (i.e. we can blame Jay for declassifying the buggy chord factors too soon).
I'm familiar with the virtual amphitheater and such experiments from earlier BFI Regenera events, as well as from my days working with Bonnie DeVarco on 2nd-life type virtual high school etc, i.e. early Meta type stuff. No, I don't have any goggles yet, but I do brainstorm about virtual realities (polyhedrons prominent) with my Silicon Forest friends.
Speaking of social media and "the computer" (another Fuller meme), I think Bucky was taking note of the term's evolving meaning over his lifetime (including in science fiction), and how (some) people seemed to take computer output as more objectively authoritative.
Then came Jay Forrester and world modeling (Club of Rome), so close to world game in both implementation and intent. Dr. Vannevar Bush anticipated the search engine front end to a vast archive, in 1945. Fuller rubbed shoulders with such visionary "est people" (Doxiadis...) [6]. A lot of "his" futurism was indeed synthesized from his conversations with others, Grunch of Giants included, by which time said "computer" (the one we can't fool) is "cosmic" and hardly distinguishable from "mind" itself.
I'll have more to say about Walt Disney down the road maybe, vis-a-vis his grander dreams (i.e. EPCOT, before Epcot) and whether he wanted to be remembered as "just another theme park pioneer". I love the YouTube channel DefunctLand, check it out!
One more thing: Fuller in Moscow, moseying over to the Russians, and introducing himself not only as the man behind the dome, but emphasizing this was not some corporation's or government's project, that it was his, and he was just some guy acting on his own initiative, taking responsibility.[7] And: all great ideas come from guys like him or her (they or them), not from political parties etc.. That was his point: governments and corporations are fictitious entities (in legal fiction, a subtype of screenwriting) and have no agency, no powers of thought. To think otherwise is to hold on to some baseless superstitions.
Lots more to say. Great interview.
Congratulations to Gary Doskas for a really excellent FSI presentation yesterday on tetrahelices (adding to spellchecker) -- Gary uses "tetrahelix" for the plural as well.
One more thing: Fuller in Moscow, moseying over to the Russians, and introducing himself not only as the man behind the dome, but emphasizing this was not some corporation's or government's project, that it was his, and he was just some guy acting on his own initiative, taking responsibility.[7] And: all great ideas come from guys like him or her (they or them), not from political parties etc.. That was his point: governments and corporations are fictitious entities (in legal fiction, a subtype of screenwriting) and have no agency, no powers of thought. To think otherwise is to hold on to some baseless superstitions.
Lots more to say. Great interview.
Congratulations to Gary Doskas for a really excellent FSI presentation yesterday on tetrahelices (adding to spellchecker) -- Gary uses "tetrahelix" for the plural as well.
Kirby
PS: if my Turkey-based company, Clarusway, recruits enough students for a next US-based cohort, I'll be again drafted and mobilized on Saturdays (among other days), through to the end of 2022. No more TrimTab meetups for me in that case, sigh (we meet at the same time). It's not a sure thing I gather, i.e. that we'll have a full enough load. I'll know more by early October. I should be able to make it to the next meetup at least.
[1] https://flic.kr/p/2nNZRa5
[2] https://controlroom.blogspot.com/2022/09/m4w.html
[3] http://grunch.net/snelson/
[4] https://www.etymonline.com/word/scan
[5] https://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2009/01/about-habitats.html
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Est:_The_Steersman_Handbook
[7] https://pacificdomes.com/american-innovators-icons-buckminster-fuller-george-nelson-and-charles-ray-eames/ (I'm still digging for the precise article I'm remembering)
Random souvenirs:
